Chrysalis Dolls by Helen Kish

With the release of the new Barbie Basics sets and all of Lena's wedding plans, I feel like this blog has been taken over by Mattel products lately.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I have no affiliation with Mattel and I like to try and keep a decent amount of diversity on the blog.  So, for today's review, I decided to look at a group of dolls who have very little in common with Barbie, and nothing whatsoever to do with Mattel.

The girls in today's review are designed by Helen Kish, a renowned doll artist whose work was popular back in the early 2000s.  This is around the same time that Robert Tonner was releasing the16-inch Cinderellas that I love so much, and Ellowyne Wilde was making a name for herself.

I've mentioned Ms. Kish's adorable 7-inch Riley's World dolls a few times in passing on the blog, but today I'm going to be focused on her Chrysalis collections.  With sizes in 8, 12 and 14 inches, the Chrysalis dolls are larger than Riley, and most of them have plastic bodies with great articulation.  Between 2008 and 2013, I eagerly anticipated each Chrysalis release, and poured over all of the beautiful promotional photos.  But back in those days I didn't have the budget to buy any of my favorites.  In the last few years I've made up for that fact by searching out a few select Chrysalis dolls, mostly on the secondary market, and finally bringing them home:

My First Heels Lark by Helen Kish, 2008.  From the Chrysalis collection.

One of the reasons that I decided to write this particular review is that my experience with the lovely Girls of Many Lands dolls last year made me nostalgic for the days when Helen Kish was regularly releasing her work:

Girls of Many Lands dolls, sculpted by Helen Kish.

Another reason for this review is that the Virtual Doll Convention (VDC) recently came out with a brand-new 12-inch Helen Kish doll who is reminiscent of the 12-inch Chrysalis girls.  She's called The Little Flower and looks like this:

I thought it would be fun to review a few older Chrysalis dolls today, and then compare them to the VDC newcomer in a follow-up post.

Before I show you the dolls that I bought, I'll offer a little background.  As I mentioned earlier, there are three main doll sizes within the Chrysalis group.  There are 14-inch characters, 12-inch younger siblings, and 8-inch toddlers/babies.

In the 14-inch category, there are four main characters: Lark, Piper, Wren, and Raven.  I'll show you an example of each of these girls.

First up is my favorite version of Lark, who has eluded me over the years.  She's called Creamsicle and I adore everything about her:

Lark Creamsicle, from the Kish & Company archive.

Here's a nice example of Piper:

This is the very first Wren doll, holding one of the 8-inch babies:

Wren Pistachio, from the Kish & Company archive.

And last is Raven.  My favorite version of Raven is called High Flying.  She's another doll that I covet but have not been able to purchase:

High Flying Raven from the Kish & Company archive.

Her flight-themed outfit is amazing.

There are other 14-inch characters who appeared once or twice, including some boys, but I won't list all of them here.  You can find them on Doll Scroll or in the Kish & Company archives, although neither site appears to be complete.  All of the different characters have unique face molds, but they have similar features--at least from a distance.

In the 12-inch category, the primary character is named Bethany.  This is my favorite version of her, called Bethany Loves Beagles:

Bethany Loves Beagles, from the Kish & Company archive.

I love beagles, too.

There are a few other 12-inch characters as well, including Olivia, who looks sweet (but very serious!):

Olivia Tristesse.

The main character in the toddler/baby size is Tatum, who is cute, but has limited articulation:

Gotta Dance Tatum.

There are also younger-looking 8-inch dolls with bent legs.  Tatum appears in this form, too:

Same face mold, different legs.

I've always been most interested in the 14-inch Chrysalis dolls, so that's where I've been focusing my shopping attention.

The first Chrysalis doll that I bought was the only one that I could find who was still new-in-box from a dealer.  She's the cover girl for this review, My First Heels Lark, and I paid about $350 for her...which isn't bad considering that her original retail price was $299.

She came in a lightweight cardboard box with a brownish-gold lid:

The box says "Chrysalis" on it, and has a design underneath that reminds me of a jellyfish.  I'm not sure what the design is actually supposed to be.

The top of the box lifts right off, and I found Lark secured with white ribbons behind two layers of tissue paper:

She came with a long rectangular certificate of authenticity that has the same jellyfish-like design that we saw on the front of the box:

The certificate basically says that the doll is limited and was created under the direction and scrutiny of the artist herself.  There's also a 2009 copyright, which is strange because this Lark is from the 2008 collection:

This version of Lark was limited to 130 pieces, which isn't a lot.  Most of the Chrysalis dolls that I've seen were made in editions of 200-500.

It's hard to be 100% sure that dolls like this are actually new-in-box, since they can be re-packaged to look untouched.  But this Lark came with her hairnet and neck padding still in place, and only a few loose ribbons around her arms:

She was very easy to de-box, but the heels on her shoes make her difficult to balance:

I had to position her with her knees bent and her body leaning back in order for her to stand on her own:

Awkward.

If her legs are straight at the knees, her whole body tips forward:

Balancing Lark was frustrating, but it's actually kind of the point of this doll.  She's meant to be a young girl trying on her first set of high-heeled shoes, so of course she's having a hard time keeping her balance!

Here she is from the back:

Her light brown mohair wig is tied into two pigtails, and the back has some shorter strands that cover the wig cap really well:

I like the look and feel of mohair wigs, but I don't see them much anymore.

In the front, Lark's wig has soft, wispy bangs and little ringlet curls that hang down in front of each wavy pigtail:

The pigtails are tied with delicate pink and burgundy ribbons that coordinate with the outfit:

Lark's face is hand-painted with greyish blue side-glancing eyes and dark, lined lips:

I love this doll's expression!

Here's a closer look at her face paint:

She has a bit of a Mona Lisa vibe going on, don't you think?

I love the look of the hand-painted features, although the lip color is a bit dark for a girl this age.  Perhaps she's testing out her mother's makeup along with those high heels?  The lip color matches the dress nicely, which I appreciate.

Lark's blue irises have some painted texture, although it's not a traditional iris pattern.  The eyebrows are incredibly fine and realistic, with lots of tiny hairlines:

Lark has painted lower eyelashes, but no upper lashes, which is somewhat unconventional.

Larks' dark lips have an even darker liner, and the shape of her mouth has the bowed lips and chin dimples that are hallmarks of Kish's work:

This doll was not painted by Helen Kish herself, but if I remember correctly, that was given as an option with some of the editions--for a price, of course.

Lark has cute little molded ears tucked behind her pigtails:

And she has a 2007 copyright mark on the back of her neck:

Lark is wearing a dress with a knitted burgundy top, a green silk sash, and an iridescent purple pleated skirt:

Helen Kish tends to play around with lots of different colors and textures in her dolls' clothing, and this ensemble is no exception.

The shimmering green sash closes with a metal hook and is separate from the rest of the dress.  It has a fabric flower covering the closure:

The dress looks fine without the sash, but I feel like the splash of green makes it extra-special:

I discovered at this stage that posing Lark with her knees bent and her toes pointing inward was the best way to get her to balance.  And it's a perfect pose for a little girl who's trying on precarious shoes!

I've got this!

The pleated skirt of the dress has a beige net overlay, which softens the bright iridescence of the underlying fabric:

The bodice of the dress opens down the back with a row of metal snaps:

The contrast between the soft knit top of the dress and the crisp pleated skirt is even more apparent when the dress is off Lark's body:

The entire bodice is lined with a dark tan knit that's reminiscent of thick pantyhose:

The skirt isn't lined, but the underside of that purple fabric is even more dazzling than the front!

The heeled shoes, for which this version of Lark is named, are made out of black leather and have little straps at the top that close with golden buttons:

The heels look solidly made, and haven't come unglued over the years:

Underneath her dress, Lark is wearing a pair of thick golden stockings:

And under these, she has a pair of plain white underpants:

Both of Lark's feet are pretty badly stained from the dark shoes:

This surprised me, because I would have thought that the thick stockings would protect the plastic.  And there are no dark marks whatsoever on the stockings.  So it's a bit of a mystery:

Lark has a vinyl head on a plastic body.  The plastic has a nice weight and doesn't feel cheap.  She also has an impressive thirteen points of articulation:

Her adorable tummy sticks out a bit, which is also a characteristic of Ms. Kish's Riley dolls:

Here she is from the back:

Lark's neck is her only elastic-strung joint.  It has great flexibility, and can look up:

And down:

It can also tip from side to side and spin all of the way around:

Her shoulders are rotating hinges that allow her arms to lift up and away from her body to about a 100 degree angle:

Her arms can also spin around:

Lark's elbows and wrists are rotating hinges, and can bend to 90 degrees in some orientations but not others:

She can rest a hand on her upper thigh, but cannot touch her face:

She can touch the top of her head, though:

And fold her hands nicely in front of her:

Her hand mold is fairly standard, with the ring and middle fingers connected and the others separate:

There are subtle molded creases and fingernails, too:

I'm not exactly sure about the mechanism of Lark's hips, because those joints are tight and hard to see.  The movement is similar to that of a rotating hinge, though, with a bit of side-to-side flexibility:

And even more side-to-side flexibility when Lark is sitting on the ground:

She can also sit on the ground with her legs closer together:

And she can do full front-to-back splits:

Her legs sit at an odd angle when she does these splits, though:

Lark's knees are rotating hinges that can bend to about 90 degrees:

This allows her to kneel on one knee:

And also on two knees, but her balance is precarious like this!

Tuck that tummy, Lark!

Lark can also rotate her legs below the knee, which helps with her balance:

Her ankle joints are rotating hinges, so she can flex and extend her feet, and they also spin around:

The toes are nicely detailed, with little molded nails:

Overall (especially without her high heels) this doll has exceptionally good balance.  She can stand on her own in a variety of different poses:

She feels solid and high-quality, and is a lot of fun to play with.

If I had to nitpick something, I'd ask for more flexibility in Lark's arms, so that she could touch her face.  I also anticipate that the elastic in her neck will loosen over time and might eventually need to be replaced.  But I have to look hard to find any kind of criticism here.  I'm very impressed with this lovely girl.

Lark is 14.5 inches tall, so she towers over standard Barbie dolls like Petra:

Signature Looks Barbie (left) and Helen Kish Lark (right).

She's also taller than my pink-haired Paola Reina Las Amigas doll, Cleo:

Las Amigas Cleo by Paola Reina (left) and Helen Kish's Lark (right).

Just for fun, here's Lark with my little 7-inch Raggedy Riley from Kish & Company's Riley's World collection:

Raggedy Riley (left) and My First Heels Lark (right) both by Helen Kish.

As an aside, and stealing a picture from an old review, here's a lineup where you can see the Riley dolls' body style:

Kish Jada (far left) and Riley (far right).

If you ignore the Patsyette doll in the middle, this picture nicely shows an older Riley body (far right), which is made entirely out of heavy vinyl and has only five points of articulation.  Later Riley's World dolls like Jada (far left), have vinyl heads with articulated plastic bodies, much like the Chrysalis dolls.

I believe the well-articulated Riley dolls like Jada came out in 2007, a year before the Chrysalis debut, so Ms. Kish was clearly thinking about articulation at that time.  I'm thrilled that she was!

Getting back to Lark, I wanted to snap a few portraits with the full outfit.  I omitted the shoes, so that I didn't have to worry about balance:

Thank you!  Those shoes were hurting my feet.

In fact, I'm going to rest here for a minute.

Once I got Lark back on her feet, I had a great time photographing her face.  Those side-glancing eyes are very expressive, and can make her look curious:

Or a little shy:

She can even look coy sometimes!

She's a delightful little doll.

So delightful, in fact, that it didn't take me long to seek out a friend for her.

The second doll I bought is called Piper Peaceful Warrior.  She's been on my radar since her release in 2010:

I love this doll's bright red hair, determined expression, and eclectic outfit.

She comes with a certificate of authenticity that has the same wording as Lark's:

Piper was in a limited release of 425 dolls.  Despite her large edition size, this girl was harder for me to find than Lark.  She cost more, too, even though she was not mint in box.

She arrived in pretty good shape, with her original hairdo intact and all of her original outfit pieces:

Here she is from the back:

Piper's hair is styled into two braided buns, with painted toothpicks decorating each bun:

One of the toothpicks is broken, but it's impossible to tell by just looking.

There are a lot of loose tendrils of hair hanging down around Piper's neck.  These can look messy at times, but have a dramatic effect:

I checked Piper's promotional photos, and it seems like the tendrils of hair are intentional, although perhaps they were a bit curlier and more organized when she was new:

Piper Peaceful Warrior from the Kish & Company archive.

Piper's face can be easily distinguished from Lark's.  Her head is not as oblong and her eyes are smaller:

I love her freckles and light blue eyes, and I think the color of her lips makes her look younger than Lark:

Piper has a straighter upper lip than Lark, and her lip liner is more subtle:

Here are the two faces side-by-side (at least if you're viewing this on a monitor):

I really like both faces.  It's hard to pick a favorite.  I'd love to see Wren and Raven in person someday, too, so I can appreciate their distinct personalities.

Piper's outfit is really cool.  She's wearing a brown print jacket with an asymmetric design and frog button closure on the left side:

The little buttons actually work, and remind me a bit of traditional Chinese clothing:

The jacket is well constructed, but it isn't lined, so it feels lightweight:

All of the seams are carefully reinforced:

Underneath the jacket, Piper is wearing a white blouse with bell sleeves and a lace ruffle at the bottom:

This closes in back with metal snaps:

Piper has ankle-length cotton capri pants with a dainty flower print and cuff fabric that matches the jacket:

Her footwear feels incongruous with the rest of the outfit, but it gives the whole look a modern, youthful feel:

Piper's high-top sneakers are pale yellow and decorated with graffiti-like lettering.

They have working laces and rubber soles, just like real sneakers:

The lettering on these shoes caused some confusion for me, though.  The left side of the left shoe has what looks like the beginning of the name "Kish," which makes perfect sense:

There's a bit of a mess at the back of the shoe along the seam, so the "s" is cut off, but you can clearly see the "h" from the end of "Kish:"

After the "h," there's an arrow and three dots, suggesting that the word on the right shoe comes after this one:

And...?

However, the letters on the left side of the right shoe look the same as the left side of the left shoe.  It's another start to the name "Kish:"

There's more confusion along the back seam...

That poor "s" can't catch a break.

And then the right side of the right shoe has the end of a different name:

That looks like an "-er" ending to me.  Kiser??  Hm.  Was the right shoe supposed to say "Piper?"

I scoured the internet for more close-up pictures of these shoes, to see if mine are incorrectly made, but I couldn't find much.

One Flickr user has some beautiful, clear photos of Piper that allowed me to get a good look at the shoes, but the angle isn't ideal:

To me, this looks like the right shoe (on the left side of the photo) has a "Pi-" like the beginning of "Piper."  That supports my hypothesis.  But the left shoe has an "-er..." ending, not the ending of "Kish" that I have on my doll's left shoe.   So that's confusing.

Also, it's interesting that my Piper's shoes have white laces, the promotional photos have green laces, and the Flickr photo has black laces.  I like the green laces best.

If anyone else owns this doll, please let us know what your shoes say!  I need more data.

Here's a look at Piper's pants without the blouse on top:

They have a simple straight waist with a metal snap in back:

The top inch or so of the pants are lined in black (which makes me worry about stains...) but the legs are unlined:

Underneath her pants, Piper is wearing some stockings that are very large on her:

I suspect that these were not part of the original outfit, but are a clever way to try and reduce staining from that black pant liner.

My Piper came with a few extra outfits.  I don't tend to redress dolls like this, but I gave some of the outfits a try to see what Piper looks like in different clothing.

This blue sweater and jeans outfit is cute, and it brings out the color of Piper's eyes, but that sweater is very short!

I prefer the cut of this little green cami and shorts set:

More age-appropriate.

And this colorful sundress is adorable:

With really fun square buttons in the back:

It's fun to see Piper in some different looks, but I like her best in the original outfit:

I've always admired the promotional photo for this doll, so I tried to re-create her ready-for-action peaceful warrior pose:

Piper can look more casual and pensive, too:

But I like her best when she's staring down the camera.  I feel like she's trying to control my mind or something:

I'm the doll you've been looking for.

She really is the doll of my dreams.

Exactly.

Lark was eager to meet Piper:

Hi there!

Piper was wary of Lark's easy friendliness at first:

Um...stop touching me.

But she eventually warmed up:

I guess this is nice.

Now, I could have stopped here, right?  We've gotten to look at two lovely Kish Chrysalis dolls, each with very different outfits and faces.

However, the Virtual Doll Convention Kish girl that I want to review next is 12 inches tall.  Both Lark and Piper are 14 inches tall.  So if my aim is to do a comparison of old and new Kish dolls, I can't be looking at two completely different sizes, right?  That would be confusing.

Also, there's an obvious 12-inch Kish doll for me to review:

Tag Along Bethany and Piper Peaceful Warrior from the Kish & Company archive.

She's called Tag Along Bethany and appears to be Piper's younger sister.

The smaller Chrysalis doll boxes look just like Lark and Piper's boxes, but they're shorter:

They're not wider, although this picture makes it look like they are.

My Bethany came new in her box from eBay, and cost around $200:

She has a certificate of authenticity just like her big sister's:

The 2010 date is prominently displayed on this certificate.

My first impression of Bethany was that she's cute, and I like her smaller size, but I'm not crazy about her heavy dark bangs.  That bulky style doesn't take advantage of the fine texture of mohair:

The wig also makes Bethany's head look too big...or maybe her head is actually too big.  It's hard to tell for sure.

Here she is from the back:

Bethany has a somber expression with forward-facing eyes:

She reminds me a lot of the smaller Riley dolls, with her big cheeks and full lips:

I don't like this face mold quite as much as I like Lark or Piper's, though.  There's a blankness to the eyes (which are also slightly wonky) and not much expression in the mouth:

Still, the paint is beautifully done, with delicate eyebrows and a nice variation of blues in the irises:

Bethany's lips have a faint line around them, and the color is a rosy coral pink:

In profile, you can see Bethany's large ears and some subtle puffiness under her eyes:

I actually like Bethany's face in profile even more than I like it front-on.  Her mouth has more expression from this angle--like she's about to say something.

Bethany's outfit includes a hoodie with embroidered and gathered details:

I like the pleated bubble style of the shirt's cuffs, especially on Bethany's left side: 

The right side is not as neat, so the effect is lost:

The hoodie opens in back with a zipper:

But the hood itself doesn't have a seam that opens, so it has to be slid over Bethany's head:

This was a bit difficult to do, since Bethany has a large head!

And the effort messed up her hair quite a bit:

Fortunately, mohair is easy to tame:

The hoodie is beautifully made--except for that one sleeve cuff:

I especially like the brown embroidery along the bottom half of the garment:

Under the hoodie, Bethany is wearing a white tee shirt with the Kish & Company logo, and some capri pants that match Piper's:

Here's a closer look at the tee shirt:

This shirt closes in back with velcro:

This is the only velcro I've seen with any of these Chrysalis dolls.

In order to get Bethany's capri pants off, I had to remove her shoes.  These are high-top sneakers with rubber soles and real laces, just like Piper's, but they don't have any lettering on the sides, just some red and black swirl designs:

No mystery to solve here.

The last piece of Bethany's wardrobe is a pair of simple white underpants:

Like her big sister, Bethany has a vinyl head, a plastic body, and thirteen points of articulation:

Her movement is very similar to Piper's, but I'll run through all of the joints quickly.

Bethany's elastic-strung neck has gotten a little loose over the last 15 years, so her head tends to loll backwards:

Her other joints are plastic, so they have remained sturdy.

Her shoulders are rotating hinges that have even more upward flexibility than Piper's equivalent joints:

And her arms can spin all of the way around, too:

There's a tiny bit less flexion in Bethany's elbows and wrists than what we saw with Piper, but the difference is small:

She can't touch her face:

But she can rest her hands low on her hips:

Bethany's hips have some side-to-side mobility:

And, like Piper, even more mobility when she's sitting down and her legs are rotated upwards:

I can peek in to see the mechanism of these joints a bit better than I could with Piper.  But I still can't tell exactly what the design is:

I draw the line at doing deconstructive surgery on $200 dolls, so I guess I'll never know exactly what this joint looks like inside.

The mystery hips allow Bethany to do nice front-to-back splits:

And she can sit on the ground with her legs together if she leans back a little:

Bethany can also sit nicely in a chair:

And she can kneel on two knees...

Or on one:

As I was taking that last picture, I notice that Bethany has even more molded detail in her hands than Piper does!

Here's the front side, where the knuckle creases are very clear:

Bethany's ankles are rotating hinges with a good range of motion:

And there's nice detail in her little toes, too:

This little one is just as much fun to pose as her sister:

And her balance is excellent. 

I put Bethany back into her full outfit for a few portraits:

Despite her bland face, this little one looks ready for action!

I tried pulling the hood up over Bethany's hair.  It was a bit tricky to do, but it fits, and looks cute:

I'm definitely impressed by this girl's articulation, and I like her face well enough, but I feel like she might be a candidate for re-wigging at some point.  Bright red pigtails would look awesome on her.  And maybe a few freckles, too?

I found this wig on Amazon, so I'll post over on Patreon if it fits and I build up the nerve to use it:

For now, I can enjoy Bethany with her dark hair:

Here are the two sisters together:

Bethany idolizes her older sister, and loves to follow her around:

She also likes to be carried around, so she can feel what it's like to be as tall as Piper:

Piper usually indulges Bethany:

I think she secretly likes to show off how strong her arms are--and how well she can balance!

Easy.

Bethany noticed somebody watching them from the side of the room:

Who's that?

It's Lark, who didn't want to be left out of the action:

Hi guys.

I think Lark wishes that she had a little sister like Bethany:

She's so cute!

But maybe they can all be friends.

Whenever I have special art dolls like this, I like to take them outside for some portraits in natural light.

Unfortunately, Lark didn't photograph very well against the bright green of the ivy along my fence:

This is washing me out.

She suggested that we move over to a tree with darker leaves:

Let's try over there!

This Japanese maple was a good match for Lark's burgundy dress:

I like this spot.

She stopped to make sure I had plenty of foliage framing her face...

Are you seeing all of these branches, Emily?

And then posed for a lovely portrait:

The Japanese maple was a bit matchy-matchy with Lark's outfit, though, so she walked over to a different part of the garden:

What's over here?

She found a nice spot, with some green in the background, but also a hint of burgundy:

This is my favorite plant.

And I was able to get my favorite portrait of her:

Piper and Bethany were less concerned about how they looked in photos, and more excited about exploring the environment:

I wanna walk on this wall!  And climb those trees!

As it turns out, Bethany is a spitfire!  She wanted to investigate every corner of the garden.

I love it here!

I guess being in a box for fifteen years was a little repressive.

Piper kept a close eye on her younger sister, but she also kept a close eye on me:

Stop taking so many pictures.

Bethany found the Japanese maple and scrambled all of the way up to the top:

I'm like a bird!

She had a great view of the garden, but was dangerously far from the ground!  She called out so that Piper could see how high she had climbed:

Look at me, Piper!  I'm a bird!

Piper saw her...

*gasp*

And demanded that she come down!

Get back here right now, Bethany.

Bethany made it safely back down from the tree, and explained that she was only trying to get a better view:

It was totally safe, Piper.

Piper wan't mad, but she kept an even closer eye on her sister after that.

You stay right here with me.

Bottom line?  Helen Kish got my attention back in the early 2000s with her small Riley's World dolls, but I feel like the Chrysalis collection was her greatest playline achievement.  These dolls are beautifully made, with an appealing range of hand-painted faces, soft mohair wigs, and creative wardrobes.  Thirteen points of articulation make the dolls easy and fun to pose, and they're sturdy enough to balance on their own in many of those poses.  The larger dolls can even carry the smaller ones with no photo gimmicks or balance assistance.  These girls are a perfect size for play, too: not so small that they're hard to dress and manipulate, and not so large as to be cumbersome.

I'm also very happy with the specific dolls that I chose.  I love Lark's engaging expression and beautiful outfit, and while she can't balance very well in her heels, I appreciate the intentionality behind that.  Piper's red hair, freckles, and determined expression make her stand out from the crowd, and her intricate Asian-inspired outfit adds depth to her personality.  Little sister Bethany is probably my least favorite of the trio.  Not because of her size, though: the 12-inch dolls can hold their own in terms of balance and articulation.  But Bethany's face mold is not as dynamic as the others, and that dark wig with heavy bangs overpowers her features.

Despite the passage of time, I can clearly remember how excited I'd get when new Chrysalis releases were announced.  I'd carefully examine each promotional picture, fantasizing about which doll I would choose if I could afford one.  Now, seventeen years after those first Chrysalis girls came out, it feels amazing to finally have three of them in my collection.  They've all aged well, too, both in terms of their construction and also in terms of their aesthetic, and they feel as new and exciting to me now as they did almost two decades ago.  My mom always told me that some things are worth waiting for.  Lark, Piper, and Bethany are most certainly among those things.